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Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-26-2006 05:45 PM |
I've never folded KK preflop in a cash game, until 10 minutes ago. I don't have a HH but here's how the preflop betting went.
$25 NL - Full Table
Player A - UTG - $30
Me - UTG+1 - $28
Player B - UTG+2 $9
Player C - UTG+3 $60
Player A limps, I raise to $1.50 with KK.
Players B and C both call.
Player A reraises after limping to $6
I call
Player B goes all-in for $9 total
Player C calls
Player A goes all-in for $30 total.
Here I decided to fold. I was certain one of them had AA.
What do you think? Was it a safe fold here?
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My poker is better than your poker. |
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 Macio
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| Joined: 10 May 2006 |
| Total Posts: 3442 |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-26-2006 06:08 PM |
Money .. one thing i will never do (i think) is to fold KK preflop. I have lost with AA so many times to KK kiting set, K high flush, and stright that i will never ever do it myself.
Last week i had a day that 3 times i was delt KK i lost it every single time and i was -$70 with them that day but i still belieive you should try to go all in preflop with KK ..
Macio |
back to the GRIND !!!!!!!!!
NL$100 - running badly as always  |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-26-2006 06:24 PM |
Well I think its a bit strange here:
Player A just limps... Player B first just called the raise of you (trying to lay a trap with AA?), then player C reraised it and than B suddenly reraised all in so maybe he really wás trying to lay the trap and figured "now I have to stick it in". Then C just calls after reraising (so he is appearently not so sure about his hand anymore, because he could reraise to get rid of the original raiser wich is you, so this one is not holding AA I think). Then A goes all in for so much money I would beginning to think he's holding 72o ;-). No seriously, first he limps, then he just calls a first raise, then he goes over everyone and sticks it all in for 30 $... it doesn't make sense, maybe these guys are holding QQ, or if they are agressive even AK or AQ, who knows...
Anyway, with KK I would always call an all in preflop... with QQ I might consider folding to a raise, reraise, reraise because with that much raising there has to be a king or ace, or even KK or AA in someones hands, and the chance of flopping an ace or king is 43 %, so not worth taking the risk I guess because these guys must be holding an overpair or one or two overcards that could take you down.
But one thing I notice is that you didn't post how the hand ended... Now why is that i'm wondering? Maybe you're expecting some people to say: "I would always call with KK" so you could reply "Yeah but here is the ending of the story: the guy had AA"... So because you didn't post the end of the hand I guess you ended up making a good laydown against somebody holding AA... but still I think I would always call with KK in 99,99 % of all cases... but hey, if you made a good laydown, you made a good laydown... as the song goes: "you gotta know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em".
By the way, here is what Doyle Brunson thinks about throwing KK away in his Super System book: "Conversely, a rare situation could exist where you'd consider throwing away two Kings before the Flop when you got raised. It's a hard hand to get away from…but if a real tight player moved in on you a player you know to be so tight that he wouldn't make that kind of play unless he had two Aces then, you might want to throw them away. Of course, you'd have to be almost certain about your man before you'd do that. One way I make this rare decision is to put myself in my opponent's position. I ask myself if I'd re raise (if I were him) with two Queens (or less). If the answer is NO ... I'd throw the two Kings away."
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bobby7
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| Joined: 05 Apr 2004 |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-26-2006 07:44 PM |
B is too short his range is wide here so if he has aces its just dumb luck
C called your raise and then reraised, looks too much like he has QQ JJ maybe AK AQ, this is not how AA usually plays, again if he has AA its dumb luck. there was a limper and a raise i cannot say i have ever seen someone just CALL with aces in this situation.
i am not folding KK worrying about either of them, now player A is the only one who most likely has it, i dont think i would fold anyway because with all this action good chance at least one ace is dead making it harder for an A to beat you.
im still not folding this hand, you could post and tell me that one had AA and ill still say calling was the right play. i have folded KK preflop in a ring game on quite a few occasions but here id call. |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-26-2006 08:29 PM |
I made a mistake in the way the hand went down and corrected it. It was player A that reraised to $6 after limping UTG, not player C as I originally posted.
I didn't post the outcome and what they had because it doesn't seem relevant to my decision to fold and I don't want their holdings to alter anyone's opinion. But so far it seems the three of you would have called. |
My poker is better than your poker. |
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Drogo
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| Joined: 04 Jul 2005 |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-26-2006 09:12 PM |
I could fold KK pre flop in extreme circumstances but this isn't one of them. With a short stack involved you know his range is wide and that influences the other players and widens their range. A limp re raise is often AA but just as often AK or 99 or some other "good but not great" hand that someone decides is worth semi bluffing with.
I call here and expect to have the best hand at least half the time (and you don't need to be ahead even that often with that much money in the pot).
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Lidius
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| Joined: 12 Jul 2006 |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-26-2006 10:12 PM |
I wish more posted hands would leave results out.
I call here and feel good about it. There are people I will fold KK if they rep AA after I reraise, but that list is short enough it hasnt occurred yet. |
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mayce22
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-26-2006 11:36 PM |
I agree with others here that I think I couldn't fold KK preflop. Player A with his play could hold AA but if thats the case then it's just terrible luck. I think it's assuming too much to put him on the one hand that beats you pre-flop.
The first re-raise scares me but the second raise doesn't fit and could just be a move to get him heads up with the short stack. I figure AKs or AQs. You would think that with AA he would just call to keep you in the hand and take you out after the flop.
Either way, I think with KK in this hand I would stay in and either take down a nice sized pot or hit the reload button. I am curious to see how it turned out. JB |
"Winner Winner, Chicken Dinner!" |
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robb23
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 01:55 AM |
| it was a wrong fold |
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Drogo71
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| Joined: 13 Oct 2005 |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 08:42 AM |
| One thing you didnt mention was some of the most important information by far, ie your read on these players. The only circumstance that I would lay down KK pre flop would be in a situation like this one IF all the players involved except the short stack, had extremely tight table images, and at the 10 and 25 dollar limits, I think it's unlikely in the extreme this would be the case. Possible, but very unlikely. |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 10:12 AM |
Thanks for the replies everyone. It's clear I made a poor decision to fold.
For those of you who want to know what they had, the short stack had suited rags and took down the main pot with a flush. The other two had JJ and QQ. The guy with QQ made a set on the flop, but I would have spiked a K on the river to take down the side pot for over a $30 profit.
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My poker is better than your poker. |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 10:33 AM |
| Well how often do you see JJ QQ and KK at the same time... Pretty special if you ask me |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 10:42 AM |
Not too often. I've seen AA, KK, QQ once.  |
My poker is better than your poker. |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 11:58 AM |
I had AA v KK v QQ not too long ago at a 6 handed 3/6 limit table, pretty crazy pot. I guess I missed an opportunity on the river, with the turn being capped, it felt like someone hit a set. I'm MontiBurns:
**** Hand History for Game 4985765664 *****
$3/$6 Texas Hold'em - Sunday, August 20, 00:17:04 ET 2006
Table Table 109141 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: Bobo_da_Fool ( $49 )
Seat 3: Heavenly929 ( $194 )
Seat 4: jb1945111 ( $162.25 )
Seat 5: MontiBurns ( $174 )
Seat 6: fromick ( $129 )
Heavenly929 posts small blind [$1].
jb1945111 posts big blind [$3].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to MontiBurns [ Ac Ah ]
MontiBurns raises [$6].
fromick folds.
Bobo_da_Fool calls [$6].
Heavenly929 raises [$8].
jb1945111 folds.
MontiBurns raises [$6].
Bobo_da_Fool calls [$6].
Heavenly929 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 7s, 4d ]
Heavenly929 checks.
MontiBurns bets [$3].
Bobo_da_Fool calls [$3].
Heavenly929 calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
Heavenly929 checks.
MontiBurns bets [$6].
Bobo_da_Fool raises [$12].
Heavenly929 raises [$18].
MontiBurns calls [$12].
Bobo_da_Fool raises [$12].
Heavenly929 calls [$6].
MontiBurns calls [$6].
** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
Heavenly929 checks.
MontiBurns checks.
Bobo_da_Fool bets [$6].
Heavenly929 calls [$6].
MontiBurns calls [$6].
Bobo_da_Fool shows [ Kc, Ks ] a pair of kings.
Heavenly929 doesn't show [ Qs, Qh ] a pair of queens.
MontiBurns shows [ Ac, Ah ] a pair of aces.
MontiBurns wins $136 from the main pot with a pair of aces. |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 05:10 PM |
| Well it is still a pretty great pot if you ask me... |
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sdocy
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| Joined: 30 Jul 2006 |
| Total Posts: 49 |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 05:43 PM |
Last week, at a live cash game, for our final hand of the night, with 5 in the game, 3 got dealt AA, KK, QQ. All 3 were of course all in pre-flop, and AA walked away with $100+ from each. There were alot of suspect things about this (it was the last hand, dealer was the one with AA, and it was the two other big stacks that got KK and QQ), so I'm almost half convinced they got conned, though the person dealing certainly did not seem like the pro type. It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen I think. Will just have to keep an eye on the guy in the future.
stephen
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 06:03 PM |
| Well see, If I had had the QQ in that situation facing all ins from so many players, i figured that somebody must have held AA AK or KK, so i was either in bad shape to AA or KK, or it would be a fifty fifty chance with the AK... |
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sdocy
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| Joined: 30 Jul 2006 |
| Total Posts: 49 |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 09:19 PM |
Hehe, well, I think QQ was first to act, then AA and then KK. Plus QQ was a fairly clueless donkey that everyone had been trying to bring down all night but couldn't, he just kept hitting. The guy with AA was pretty loose too. The only really tight guy was the one that got KK.
stephen
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-27-2006 09:22 PM |
| Was this a home game Stephen? If it was, all you have to do is have the player to your left or right cut the deck for the dealer each hand, and then begin the deal. This eliminates any chance for someone to cheat. |
My poker is better than your poker. |
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sdocy
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| Joined: 30 Jul 2006 |
| Total Posts: 49 |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-28-2006 01:00 AM |
It was a cash game after a cash tournament at a local bar. A good mix of people. We do cut the deck and stuff. I didn't know the guy dealing, but I think the other people did. I'm fairly sure it was just one of those things. But was just such a perfect setup, you have to wonder.
stephen
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Lurker
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-28-2006 05:31 AM |
| Money: What was the pot-odds when you folded? |
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Re: Folded KK Preflop In A Cash Game
Posted: 08-28-2006 08:56 AM |
| Well 2 of the guys had me covered, and the other guy had about $9. Had I been behind AA I would have about 4.5:1, I was getting a little better than 3:1 on my money, so the pot odds weren't quite there. That is if I'm figuring the odds right. I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong since the stack sizes were listed in my first post. |
My poker is better than your poker. |
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